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 Post subject: HHO Booster on V-dub diesels
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:05 am 
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Glow Plug

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:48 pm
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Location: Calhoun, GA
I Have an 81 vdub puckup 1.5d. I have been researching and collecting parts to construct a hho gas generator to supplement diesle fuel for fuel economy. I have researched this pretty extensively and am pretty mechanically inclined. i dont see any obvious problems. but i wanted to hear form the powes that be in the vdub world. has anybody heard of this or done it. Pros? Cons?
Thanks for your time.
T- Bone

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Turbo Charger

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For us people that don't understand what HHO is, is that short for Water, or something else?

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:12 pm 
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Diesel Freak

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Three things Humans need and cannot live without...

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 Post subject: HHO Booster for Vdub diesel
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:38 pm 
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Glow Plug

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Location: Calhoun, GA
HHO or hydroxy gas is the Hydrogen and Oxygen gas taken from water by electrolysis it really isn't as complex as is seems at first. To make flammable caution very combustible gas form very little water basically you submerge two conductors close together but not touching charge them with 12v DC Add a bit of baking soda and watch the bubbles. The bubbles are water diffused into a gaseous form of its own elements. Two hydrogan and one oxygen thus the name HHO Not H2o because all elaemts are diffused and seperate. Because hydrogen is flammable and oxygen is already included it requires no additional air to combust. thats a very abbreviated description for more info google (Stanley Meyer, Smack booster, Water4Gas, HHO Etc..) I am not talking about running totally on water just using a little bit to supplement the the fossil fuel Im already burning.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Diesel Freak

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 5:36 pm
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Location: Sonoma County, California
its suppose to be great on emissions. reducing them to almost zero. and giving up to a 15% improved mileage.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Cetane Booster

Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 3:04 am
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I would guess that if your suggesting generating hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis while your driving that you will not see any improvement in economy, possibly a reduction. Every time energy is converted to a different form there is a loss due to inefficiencies in the conversion process, this is the first law of thermodynamics. If you are talking about generating hydrogen and oxygen offboard via a cheaper power source and then storing it in tanks in your car, you may come ahead money-wise but there are still losses and you would be carrying a highly explosive mixture in your car.

Jason

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 Post subject: HHO Generator Vdub diesel
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:36 pm 
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Glow Plug

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:48 pm
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Location: Calhoun, GA
Not being a student of thermal dynamics myself I can see the reasoning in your reply. As I understand it the gain in MPG is not wholly due to combustion of HHO gas. But That the HHO gas catalyzes the existing fossil fuel improving combustion and reducing wasted fuel therefore increasing the engines efficiency and MPG.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:32 am 
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Turbo Charger

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:12 am
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Location: Idaho
jason wrote:
I would guess that if your suggesting generating hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis while your driving that you will not see any improvement in economy, possibly a reduction. Every time energy is converted to a different form there is a loss due to inefficiencies in the conversion process, this is the first law of thermodynamics. If you are talking about generating hydrogen and oxygen offboard via a cheaper power source and then storing it in tanks in your car, you may come ahead money-wise but there are still losses and you would be carrying a highly explosive mixture in your car.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

A more viable option may be using calcium hydroxide and water to create acetylene in an onboard reactor. Since it's purely a chemical conversion, no alternator-dragging, MPG-reducing electrolysis is required.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:57 am 
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Missing Linkz
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tylernt wrote:
A more viable option may be using calcium hydroxide and water to create acetylene in an onboard reactor. Since it's purely a chemical conversion, no alternator-dragging, MPG-reducing electrolysis is required.


Pretty expensive source of acetylene (over $1/oz. of calcium carbide):
- http://wasg.iinet.net.au/lampfaq.html

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:59 am 
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Turbo Charger

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Many of the fleets here in Canada I am seeing Hydrogen boosters with a injection system on the intake after the intercooler on the intake pipe. They say its getting them better MPG for the Volvo semis, not sure though.

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 Post subject: Re: HHO Generator Vdub diesel
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:04 am 
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Turbo Charger
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T-BONE wrote:
Not being a student of thermal dynamics myself I can see the reasoning in your reply. As I understand it the gain in MPG is not wholly due to combustion of HHO gas. But That the HHO gas catalyzes the existing fossil fuel improving combustion and reducing wasted fuel therefore increasing the engines efficiency and MPG.


What limited info I've seen on HHO has shown this to be the case. Here's an interesting link I saw recently:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... ht=hho+gas

Andrew


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Turbo Charger
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jason wrote:
...... this is the first law of thermodynamics.


actually the first law of thermodaynamics is that energy cant be created or destroyed.

But what your saying is absolutely right.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:45 pm 
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Turbo Charger
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On another note...

If you could make hydrogen using the electricity from a free source (WVO genset, windmill, solar, regen braking, ect) then in might save you some fuel.

But

Most electolosis hydrogen generators I've seen, on the internet, on cars, pump the hydrogen right into the intake. They make very small quantities and the fuel injection system compensates accordingly as a normal funciton of contolling rich/lean by O2 sensor readings.

Wouldn't be so great on a diesel, because of the higher compression, the hydrogen would probably preignite as the piston came up. Having combustion too far before TDC is bad on any engine.

Up on the podium, liking to hear myself talk!

By the way this is a basic premise of Diesel engines. Ok lets say we got a gas engine and we want more power or effeciency. We raise compression from the 9 to 1 (ie passenger car) or 11 to 1 (ie sports car) to about 22 to 1 (diesel). Right away we see EGT temps skyrocket and we start melting pistons because the fuel reaches combustion temp, due to the high compression, before the piston reaches TDC. The fuel charge ignites and combustion pressures explodes as the piston is still moving up trying to compress these exploding gases. Pre-ignition is very hard on pistons, rods, bearings valves, head gaskets, head bolts ect. So in order to keep the pre-ignition from happening, with a high compression engine, we simply inject the fuel at (or slightly before, see note below) TDC. Now or combustion is simply working to push the piston down.

Want the best of both worlds? How about Direct injected gas motor? They're allready in production in the chevy Cobalt (IIRC) and probably others. Problems in design till now have been its hard to inject fuel into high compression. "Normal" gas engines inject fuel into intake area that is either at atmospheric pressure or in a vacuum. Diesel engines have powerful injection pumps, with massive injection pressure to overcome their high compression. You cant pump gas in a diesel injection pump because the gas doesn't lubricate as it is pumped (diesel does). They basically overcame this on powerstroke diesel by using High pressure oil pressure (from a secondary oil pump) to assist the injector. Now current clean diesels needed even more control so they are using "piezo" (just like the piezo electric buzzer) injectors that can be controlled electronically but still can handle enough pressure to inject into a compression ignition engine.

Note below. (from above)

Fuel is injected before TDC because it takes time for the fuel to get into the cylinder and it takes time for the combustion to happen. As the rpms increase the engine is spinning faster so this "lag" requires the fuel to be injected earlier (or on a gas engine the spark needs to happen earlier). On our diesels the "timing" is controlled inside the Injection Pump mostly by rpm. Higher rpm = earlier timing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Turbo Charger
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If the fuel was always completely burned then the conservation of energy would apply. That is not the case. I don't think anyone is making a claim that they are "making" extra energy, but rather adding a catalyst for more complete combustion of the fuel that is already there. Certainly pre-ignition would be the main concern on diesel engines.

Andrew


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Turbo Charger
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Here's one cheap!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Water4Gas-HHO-Generator-Go-Green_W0QQitemZ170224199010QQihZ007QQcategoryZ38634QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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